並前往https://www.listennotes.com/podcasts/ive%E7%9A%84%E5%AE%A2%E5%BB%B3ppaper%E7%B7%A8%E8%BC%AF%E5%AE%A4/%E5%BF%83%E7%90%86%E6%B8%AC%E9%A9%97%E5%BE%9E%E9%81%B8%E6%93%87%E7%9A%84%E5%8B%95%E7%89%A9%E8%83%BD%E7%9C%8B%E5%87%BA%E4%BD%A0%E7%9A%84%E6%84%9B%E6%83%85%E8%A7%80%E5%B8%B6%E4%BD%A0%E8%AA%8D%E8%AD%98%E6%97%A5%E6%9C%AC%E6%94%9D%E5%BD%B1%E5%A4%A7%E5%B8%AB%E6%B7%B1%E7%80%A8-TZWu0fOXBGv/