並前往https://www.listennotes.com/podcasts/%E8%BF%B7%E8%BF%B7%E8%B5%B0%E9%9F%B3/ep14%E5%89%8D%E8%A1%9B%E5%87%BA%E7%89%88%E7%A4%BE%E4%B8%80%E8%B5%B7%E6%89%93%E9%80%A0%E6%96%87%E5%8C%96%E5%BC%B7%E5%9C%8B-7IptgEYF0yX/